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10 July 2014 @ 11:04 pm
Are you in this picture?  

Are you in this picture?
Sam H.smammy on July 11th, 2014 01:35 pm (UTC)
Yes, but it's a pretty simplistic picture, and it misses the population I'm the most interested in: people who understand and support consent culture, but nevertheless sometimes violate consent to various degrees.
Vvalkyrivvalkyri on July 11th, 2014 05:29 pm (UTC)
Which also includes people who would never knowingly/intentionally violate consent, but that doesn't mean that they can't screw up and violate consent, and the simplistic view makes it a lot harder to reach those folks and help them see what to change, because the only term currently in use is Rapist, which to most people implies someone who knows damned well there is not consent.
ruthless compassion: thinkyaroraborealis on July 11th, 2014 05:36 pm (UTC)
I agree the model is overly simplistic (and I'll see if I can track down a better one)!

But I don't think that the category of Rapist only includes people who know damn well there's no consent. I'd like it to mean that eventually, but we're so far from consent culture at all in our society that I think it's totally possible -- easy, even -- for someone not to realize that they don't have their partner's consent. It's SHITTY. It's a problem. And it's also muddy.
(Deleted comment)
Vvalkyrivvalkyri on July 11th, 2014 07:26 pm (UTC)
Over in moominmolly's recent post I made a somewhat more coherent reply to oneagain. But kinda what I mean is that yes, many rapes are committed without understanding the lack of consent, but that when most people hear "so and so is a rapist" the meaning of that phrase is that that person is someone who has deliberately violated consent.

And I think consent culture could be advanced better with some sort of linguistic recognition of it being possible to rape without being a rapist.

Am on an iPad and CNN in this waiting room is making it impossible to concentrate, so might be better to look at the other comment.
ruthless compassion: cheersaroraborealis on July 11th, 2014 07:31 pm (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying, and I think you're spot on. We have a cultural cognitive dissonance around sexual assault (and, actually, other bad actions as well) that makes it difficult or impossible to have [I like this person] coexist with [this person did something shitty]. It's a problem here, and it's ALSO a problem in smaller ways, such as, people are afraid to be honest with each other about their faults, because our sense of being liked is so fragile.

We MUST -- individually and systemically -- get to the point where we can see clearly into both our strengths and our flaws. It's the only way to move forward, and we're so far from it.

So, in conclusion: totally agree.
Sam H.smammy on July 11th, 2014 08:22 pm (UTC)
Great! Since we seem to all be in agreement that people who would never knowingly/intentionally violate consent sometimes do violate consent (or facilitate or stand by), I'm left feeling frustrated that you posted a graphic that, to me, appears to specifically refute that idea.
(Deleted comment)
Sam H.smammy on July 16th, 2014 01:00 pm (UTC)
Thanks for helping me think more about this. I think that as it turns out I'm mostly chafing at the characterization of the center circle—"core sex offenders"—that ignores the much larger group of people who are well-meaning and believe in consent culture, but sometimes cross boundaries and violate consent anyway. Looking at this chart, I'm given the stark alternative between being a facilitator—shitty, but at least I didn't violate anyone's consent—and being a core sex offender. Well gee, I don't want to be a core sex offender, so I must not have violated your consent. You were just confused. You didn't state your boundaries clearly. You changed your mind. You're crazy.

My point is that I think it's really important to hold a place for situations in which consent was violated but there can be a positive, restorative outcome, and drawing a circle labeled "core sex offender" around everyone who's crossed a boundary or violated consent doesn't help.

(I believe that there is a legit category of core sex offenders.)

(And I'm not proposing that all instances of sexual assault can be remediated restoratively.)

(And also, I believe that keeping victims safe is more important than engaging transformatively with aggressors.)

Edited at 2014-07-16 01:01 pm (UTC)
Vvalkyrivvalkyri on July 12th, 2014 04:23 am (UTC)
(And whoops it was actually a comment in kimberlogic's post to which moominmolly replied)
funner'n a sack a weaselsmoominmolly on July 11th, 2014 02:22 pm (UTC)
Probably sometimes, though I try not to be when possible/convenient. :/
ruthless compassion: thinkyaroraborealis on July 11th, 2014 05:37 pm (UTC)
I totally am. I regularly find markers of sexism in my thinking and behaviors, at the very least. I hate it, and I like to think I'm making progress, but they're totally there.
born from jets!!!: gapcatness on July 12th, 2014 04:54 pm (UTC)
This. I didn't want to water down my response with, "but I try not to be" or some other explanation that attempts to mitigate my contribution to rape culture. There's a lot of stuff that I think and react to that I've been soaking in my whole life, and while it's no longer as difficult to *notice* it, it's certainly more challenging to unpack it, and it's downright difficult to obviate it.

And another thing that I struggle with is the bystander issue, because I'm not comfortable policing other people in general, but even less so when I'm not on high moral ground myself.
born from jets!!!catness on July 11th, 2014 02:57 pm (UTC)
Yup. Sigh.
DancingWolfGrrldancingwolfgrrl on July 11th, 2014 11:54 pm (UTC)
Of course I am. I think we all are, pretty much, and I think that the top comment thread is spot-on that the whole "good people don't/aren't X and I'm a good person, so I couldn't have done/said/been X" is a hugely problematic story in our culture. (It's also, for the record, one of my least favorite responses to racism.)

Good people do bad things. Knowing it is part of what helps us keep being the best people we can be.